I asked for little help with my thinking about co-production. For so long I've promoted the ladder of coproduction, from the bottom rung of no engagement, information, consultation, participation and finally coproduction. But the indicators of these are structured from a service land point of view, it feels that we measure coproduced success only when services change. The starting place is from services and success is only when services change. My thinking sketch here shows how the ladder is bolted onto a formal, money driven, deficit needs led, red tape dominated perspective. On the other hand community members are not boxed in. Some struggle, some are flying, some are lost just looking for a good conversation. So does the ladder of co-production actually reinforce the difference and is not helpful how we can engage together community members and services? And should I be promoting a different model; if so what is it? You can see what other models were offered on my LinkedIn profile shorturl.at/cfj08